And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Lets see how much we can get through. The son of Jonah? You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. And Ill leave it at that. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. I mean, you got me on the spot. The only son? So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. More on that in a moment. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. Thank you very much, Trent. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. No, thats not the case. He mentioned about the Septuagint. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. Search. Steve's musical talents may have roots in his genes. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my All right. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. But Steve cant construct a Protestant canon out of what Jesus and the apostles cited because, as Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger observes, Nowhere in the New Testament is there a direct quotation from the canonical books of Joshua, Judges, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Solomon, Obadiah, Zephaniah, and Nahum; and the New Testament allusions to them are few in number (The Cambridge History of the Bible, 148). 0. Give me a second here. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. Im running out of time. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. Nice to have you. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. I have also appeared several Lets debate the Apocrypha! In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Sure. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. Thats just being read into the text. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. That she was conceived without original sin? And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Hallo.com/mattfred. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. Thanks for being a supporter mate. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. So its not saying that he died. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? FEIN: 47-5459301. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. 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